Looking at these scopes

[JCann]

I have a BDL in 222 REM. that I inherited that has a very inexpensive Tasco scope on it. I’m looking at these scopes to replace the current one and all of them are within $50 of each other. Naturally this will be a varmint rig and I desire a simple yet functional reticle that doesn’t over power (obscure) the target. My desire is SFP but I can live with FFP. 14x is the minimum I can live with. I know Razor optics are good, I have two already, but I’ve never looked through Nightforce SHV’s and I would assume the Mark 4 Leupold would be solid but it’s the only FFP of the four. Asking y’all, especially @JEVapa his experience/knowledge of these picks.

If my funds double between now and this weekend I’ll forgo these scopes and start looking at thermals.

Vortex Razor HD LHT 3-15x42 HSR-5i.

Nightforce SHV 4-14x50 F1

Nightforce SHV 5-20x56mm MOAR.

Leupold Mark 4HD 4.5-18x52 (34mm) M5C3

 

[rockchalk06]

I only have experience with the Mark 4HD. About a hunting season and half a shoot season and it ruined me. I'll eventually have them or Mark 5HD's (I love the compact 3.6-18) and replace every Vortex I own. I'm assuming you get Leupold VIP pricing? That puts it excellent range.

 

[ClintC]

I have the NF SHV F1. It on my 6 ARC for now. I had 2 but sold it when I sold the rifle. NF scope have got me hooked. Too bad the base line optic is 1k and only offer a manufacturer warranty. Leupold and vortex have a better warranty. I have dropped a NF off a shooting bench and no POI seen. Burris XTR has the same warranty as vortex and is made in Co. You can’t go wrong with ether brand just where do you want to put you money.

 

[JCann]

I only have experience with the Mark 4HD. About a hunting season and half a shoot season and it ruined me. I'll eventually have them or Mark 5HD's (I love the compact 3.6-18) and replace every Vortex I own. I'm assuming you get Leupold VIP pricing? That puts it excellent range.

Yes, VIP pricing at several places. I have been looking at eurooptics. I think they have every scope listed except one

 

[BobbyV]

replace every Vortex I own

I'm eventually hoping to do this . . .

 

[JCann]

I have the NF SHV F1. It on my 6 ARC for now. I had 2 but sold it when I sold the rifle. NF scope have got me hooked. Too bad the base line optic is 1k and only offer a manufacturer warranty. Leupold and vortex have a better warranty. I have dropped a NF off a shooting bench and no POI seen. Burris XTR has the same warranty as vortex and is made in Co. You can’t go wrong with ether brand just where do you want to put you money.

I like the NF reticle the most out of all of them. It’s functional but not cluttered. The Leupold, although FFP reticle would probably be my second choice and the tree isn’t too cluttered when compared to others followed by Vortex.

Leupold needs to do a better job with their reticles in the VX3 and 3HD line. They have notoriously sucked hind tit with reticle design. This could possibly be due to the fact that most hunters don’t know the value of a stadia hold off reticle

 

[JEVapa]

I have a BDL in 222 REM. that I inherited that has a very inexpensive Tasco scope on it. I’m looking at these scopes to replace the current one and all of them are within $50 of each other. Naturally this will be a varmint rig and I desire a simple yet functional reticle that doesn’t over power (obscure) the target. My desire is SFP but I can live with FFP. 14x is the minimum I can live with. I know Razor optics are good, I have two already, but I’ve never looked through Nightforce SHV’s and I would assume the Mark 4 Leupold would be solid but it’s the only FFP of the four. Asking y’all, especially @JEVapa his experience/knowledge of these picks.

If my funds double between now and this weekend I’ll forgo these scopes and start looking at thermals.

Vortex Razor HD LHT 3-15x42 HSR-5i.

Nightforce SHV 4-14x50 F1

Nightforce SHV 5-20x56mm MOAR.

Leupold Mark 4HD 4.5-18x52 (34mm) M5C3

Those are all good scopes but I prefer the NFO and the Leupold. The Vortex can be a good deal but it's retained value is about the same as the good deal. The NFO will hold most of its value. The SHVs are Japanese and are excellent. However, you might want to look at the NX series. NX8 2.5-20x are awesome and come in FFP (F1) and SFP (F2) with MOA and Mil reticles. They are about $500-$700 more than the SHV but it's not something you get rid of anytime soon.

The new Leupy HDs are pretty good but not to be confused with a real Mark 4. Totally different scopes. They are really light for as big as they are and pretty well made, but not as robust as the original Mark 4s and VariX IMO. If you hit someone in the head with an old Mark 4, you'd probably kill them and it wouldn't do much to the scope, but these new HDs feel like they'll fold up like a TP tube. They won't, but they feel that way. The military (Army and some Marines) is still using old Mark 4s and new Mark5 HDs on their MK22s and the M110 upgrade. Army and Marines love Leupold.

I would recommend getting it in Mils, but that's up to you. As a former Arty guy, you should be well versed in mils and learning them in a scope should be relatively easy. Get a Kestrel or the AB app for your phone and you'll be cookin with gas in no time.

So, by your list, I'd recommend getting one of those in this order:

NFO 5-20x (consider any NX series, you won't be let down at all)
Leupold Mark 4 HD 4.5-18 (consider Mark 5 HD 3.5-18x; Mark 4 HD 6-24x
Vortex, sorry, they're dead last

Midway has a decent selection and prices for Leupold and NFO

https://www.midwayusa.com/rifle-scopes/br?Brand=Nightforce&cid=11392

Europtic has a Nightforce store where they sell demos often and have decent pricing.

Nightforce Scopes | Nightforce NXS Scope - Nightforceusa.com

www.nightforceusa.com

 

[jakeman]

I only have experience with the Mark 4HD. About a hunting season and half a shoot season and it ruined me. I'll eventually have them or Mark 5HD's (I love the compact 3.6-18) and replace every Vortex I own. I'm assuming you get Leupold VIP pricing? That puts it excellent range.

I'm eventually hoping to do this . . .

Those are all good scopes but I prefer the NFO and the Leupold. The Vortex can be a good deal but it's retained value is about the same as the good deal. The NFO will hold most of its value. The SHVs are Japanese and are excellent. However, you might want to look at the NX series. NX8 2.5-20x are awesome and come in FFP (F1) and SFP (F2) with MOA and Mil reticles. They are about $500-$700 more than the SHV but it's not something you get rid of anytime soon.

The new Leupy HDs are pretty good but not to be confused with a real Mark 4. Totally different scopes. They are really light for as big as they are and pretty well made, but not as robust as the original Mark 4s and VariX IMO. If you hit someone in the head with an old Mark 4, you'd probably kill them and it wouldn't do much to the scope, but these new HDs feel like they'll fold up like a TP tube. They won't, but they feel that way. The military (Army and some Marines) is still using old Mark 4s and new Mark5 HDs on their MK22s and the M110 upgrade. Army and Marines love Leupold.

I would recommend getting it in Mils, but that's up to you. As a former Arty guy, you should be well versed in mils and learning them in a scope should be relatively easy. Get a Kestrel or the AB app for your phone and you'll be cookin with gas in no time.

So, by your list, I'd recommend getting one of those in this order:

NFO 5-20x (consider any NX series, you won't be let down at all)
Leupold Mark 4 HD 4.5-18 (consider Mark 5 HD 3.5-18x; Mark 4 HD 6-24x
Vortex, sorry, they're dead last

Midway has a decent selection and prices for Leupold and NFO

https://www.midwayusa.com/rifle-scopes/br?Brand=Nightforce&cid=11392

Europtic has a Nightforce store where they sell demos often and have decent pricing.

Nightforce Scopes | Nightforce NXS Scope - Nightforceusa.com

www.nightforceusa.com

Damn, ya'll remind me to never look thru a Leupold Mark 4 or 5.

 

[JCann]

Those are all good scopes but I prefer the NFO and the Leupold. The Vortex can be a good deal but it's retained value is about the same as the good deal. The NFO will hold most of its value. The SHVs are Japanese and are excellent. However, you might want to look at the NX series. NX8 2.5-20x are awesome and come in FFP (F1) and SFP (F2) with MOA and Mil reticles. They are about $500-$700 more than the SHV but it's not something you get rid of anytime soon.

The new Leupy HDs are pretty good but not to be confused with a real Mark 4. Totally different scopes. They are really light for as big as they are and pretty well made, but not as robust as the original Mark 4s and VariX IMO. If you hit someone in the head with an old Mark 4, you'd probably kill them and it wouldn't do much to the scope, but these new HDs feel like they'll fold up like a TP tube. They won't, but they feel that way. The military (Army and some Marines) is still using old Mark 4s and new Mark5 HDs on their MK22s and the M110 upgrade. Army and Marines love Leupold.

I would recommend getting it in Mils, but that's up to you. As a former Arty guy, you should be well versed in mils and learning them in a scope should be relatively easy. Get a Kestrel or the AB app for your phone and you'll be cookin with gas in no time.

So, by your list, I'd recommend getting one of those in this order:

NFO 5-20x (consider any NX series, you won't be let down at all)
Leupold Mark 4 HD 4.5-18 (consider Mark 5 HD 3.5-18x; Mark 4 HD 6-24x
Vortex, sorry, they're dead last

Midway has a decent selection and prices for Leupold and NFO

https://www.midwayusa.com/rifle-scopes/br?Brand=Nightforce&cid=11392

Europtic has a Nightforce store where they sell demos often and have decent pricing.

Nightforce Scopes | Nightforce NXS Scope - Nightforceusa.com

www.nightforceusa.com

Thanks a bunch. Like you I get Military discount at eurooptics. Mil scopes are no big deal, I have 3 already. Depending on the reticle design, sometimes an FFP scope at full to partial full magnification can obscure small targets like prairie dogs at distance. SFP scopes generally don’t do this. My current leanings are the NF, then Leupold. I agree about the NX8, but currently my funds don’t allow this.

Again, I appreciate your knowledge with these scopes. I think I’ll just call you the scope Doc from now on. That way I kill two birds with one stone

 

[jakeman]

I have a BDL in 222 REM. that I inherited that has a very inexpensive Tasco scope on it. I’m looking at these scopes to replace the current one and all of them are within $50 of each other. Naturally this will be a varmint rig and I desire a simple yet functional reticle that doesn’t over power (obscure) the target. My desire is SFP but I can live with FFP. 14x is the minimum I can live with. I know Razor optics are good, I have two already, but I’ve never looked through Nightforce SHV’s and I would assume the Mark 4 Leupold would be solid but it’s the only FFP of the four. Asking y’all, especially @JEVapa his experience/knowledge of these picks.

If my funds double between now and this weekend I’ll forgo these scopes and start looking at thermals.

Vortex Razor HD LHT 3-15x42 HSR-5i.

Nightforce SHV 4-14x50 F1

Nightforce SHV 5-20x56mm MOAR.

Leupold Mark 4HD 4.5-18x52 (34mm) M5C3

Why would you prefer a SFP over FFP?

The way I understand it you have to calculate the holdover for every magnification to use the mil dots correctly. I'd think a predator rig would be better served with a FFP piece of glass, no?

@JEVapa Can you explain that, so even I have a chance of understanding? Am I all messed up on this? Can you give me an example of where a SFP scope would fit the job better than a FFP? Trying to learn something here, thanks.

 

[JEVapa]

Why would you prefer a SFP over FFP?

The way I understand it you have to calculate the holdover for every magnification to use the mil dots correctly. I'd think a predator rig would be better served with a FFP piece of glass, no?

@JEVapa Can you explain that, so even I have a chance of understanding? Am I all messed up on this? Can you give me an example of where a SFP scope would fit the job better than a FFP? Trying to learn something here, thanks.

It depends on shooter preference mostly. I like SFP scopes in the lower mags, like LPVOs and 3-9x 3.5-10x. You can only use the reticle (if it's mil or MOA) at the highest mag. Trying to use it at various magnification and calculating what the gradients are at different magnification is 100% futile because the mag settings are not what's printed on the ring and they vary from scope to scope, literally. We have taken 5-10 if the same scope and measured the magnification at various settings on the ring, and every single one was different, and none had the same mag as any other. Like measure all at 6x and one might be 6x, another 6.3x another 5.6x, etc. The only thing that stays the same on a reticle in the SFP is the zero aimpoint. Just know you have to zoom to max mag to use the reticle and you're good.

I also like FFP scopes in the 1-8x and 3-10x too but below 6x, the reticle becomes pretty useless.

Anything above 10x-14x max, I use exclusively FFP because I can use the reticle throughout the mag ranges down to 6x then nah. The 10x-14x is a wash because I'm at the 10x-14x the majority anyway so it doesn't matter much whether it's FFP or SFP. I have and shoot both.
This is just my opinion and not professional or medical advice.

 

[JEVapa]

Again, I appreciate your knowledge with these scopes. I think I’ll just call you the scope Doc from now on. That way I kill two birds with one stone

I wouldn't say that, there are a lot of people that have forgotten more about scopes than I could know. I just listen to the Optical scientists and engineers I work with and regurgitate their big words. Optics for dummies is a great book too.

 

[JCann]

Why would you prefer a SFP over FFP?

The way I understand it you have to calculate the holdover for every magnification to use the mil dots correctly. I'd think a predator rig would be better served with a FFP piece of glass, no?

@JEVapa Can you explain that, so even I have a chance of understanding? Am I all messed up on this? Can you give me an example of where a SFP scope would fit the job better than a FFP? Trying to learn something here, thanks.

Because I know how to use a SFP and I personally prefer a smaller aiming point that they usually provide when hunting very small animals such as prairie dogs when compared to a FFP scope. Both my long range bolt guns have FFP and if you use those you understand the reticle gets larger as your magnification increases.

I range with a range finder and depending on how the SFP scope is set up (often full magnification) the stadia lines equal 1 moa/mil. After you know this it’s not that difficult to figure out at what magnification they equal .25, .50, .75 moa/mil. Is a FFP scope easier? Most certainly, but if I’m shooting a one inch orange pasty at 200-300 yards at 25-30x with a FFP scope you can’t see the pasty because the cross hairs are too thick. You don’t have this problem with a SFP scope

As far as “mil dot” scopes. Very few are using those now unless they’re building a vintage M24 or M40. I’m sure there are many old school hold outs but I don’t prefer them

 

[jakeman]

It depends on shooter preference mostly. I like SFP scopes in the lower mags, like LPVOs and 3-9x 3.5-10x. You can only use the reticle (if it's mil or MOA) at the highest mag. Trying to use it at various magnification and calculating what the gradients are at different magnification is 100% futile because the mag settings are not what's printed on the ring and they vary from scope to scope, literally. We have taken 5-10 if the same scope and measured the magnification at various settings on the ring, and every single one was different, and none had the same mag as any other. Like measure all at 6x and one might be 6x, another 6.3x another 5.6x, etc. The only thing that stays the same on a reticle in the SFP is the zero aimpoint. Just know you have to zoom to max mag to use the reticle and you're good.

I also like FFP scopes in the 1-8x and 3-10x too but below 6x, the reticle becomes pretty useless.

Anything above 10x-14x max, I use exclusively FFP because I can use the reticle throughout the mag ranges down to 6x then nah. The 10x-14x is a wash because I'm at the 10x-14x the majority anyway so it doesn't matter much whether it's FFP or SFP. I have and shoot both.
This is just my opinion and not professional or medical advice.

You're a shit load of help, you know that?

You're as valuable a resource as anyone I've come across. I appreciate all your help. Imma get with you on a trigger install here pretty quick.

Thanks for the explanation. I think most everything I have is FFP, but I'm not 100% on that. I very rarely crank anything up to full power though. At least that was my experience in the past. My eyes aren't so good nowadays.

Thank you again!

 

[jakeman]

Because I know how to use a SFP and I personally prefer a smaller aiming point that they usually provide when hunting very small animals such as prairie dogs when compared to a FFP scope. Both my long range bolt guns have FFP and if you use those you understand the reticle gets larger as your magnification increases.

I range with a range finder and depending on how the SFP scope is set up (often full magnification) the stadia lines equal 1 moa/mil. After you know this it’s not that difficult to figure out at what magnification they equal .25, .50, .75 moa/mil. Is a FFP scope easier? Most certainly, but if I’m shooting a one inch orange pasty at 200-300 yards at 25-30x with a FFP scope you can’t see the pasty because the cross hairs are too thick. You don’t have this problem with a SFP scope

As far as “mil dot” scopes. Very few are using those now unless they’re building a vintage M24 or M40. I’m sure there are many old school hold outs but I don’t prefer them

Got it. Makes sense to me. Cross hairs obscure the target it's not much good. I was thinking coyotes instead of prairie dogs at 200-300. Maybe I didn't read close enough. That's why I asked. Let us know what you wind up with.

I'm not sure I could do the math in my head fast enough to use a SFP. I'm also not sure I've ever looked thru one.

 

[jakeman]

It depends on shooter preference mostly. I like SFP scopes in the lower mags, like LPVOs and 3-9x 3.5-10x. You can only use the reticle (if it's mil or MOA) at the highest mag. Trying to use it at various magnification and calculating what the gradients are at different magnification is 100% futile because the mag settings are not what's printed on the ring and they vary from scope to scope, literally. We have taken 5-10 if the same scope and measured the magnification at various settings on the ring, and every single one was different, and none had the same mag as any other. Like measure all at 6x and one might be 6x, another 6.3x another 5.6x, etc. The only thing that stays the same on a reticle in the SFP is the zero aimpoint. Just know you have to zoom to max mag to use the reticle and you're good.

I also like FFP scopes in the 1-8x and 3-10x too but below 6x, the reticle becomes pretty useless.

Anything above 10x-14x max, I use exclusively FFP because I can use the reticle throughout the mag ranges down to 6x then nah. The 10x-14x is a wash because I'm at the 10x-14x the majority anyway so it doesn't matter much whether it's FFP or SFP. I have and shoot both.
This is just my opinion and not professional or medical advice.

Because I know how to use a SFP and I personally prefer a smaller aiming point that they usually provide when hunting very small animals such as prairie dogs when compared to a FFP scope. Both my long range bolt guns have FFP and if you use those you understand the reticle gets larger as your magnification increases.

I range with a range finder and depending on how the SFP scope is set up (often full magnification) the stadia lines equal 1 moa/mil. After you know this it’s not that difficult to figure out at what magnification they equal .25, .50, .75 moa/mil. Is a FFP scope easier? Most certainly, but if I’m shooting a one inch orange pasty at 200-300 yards at 25-30x with a FFP scope you can’t see the pasty because the cross hairs are too thick. You don’t have this problem with a SFP scope

As far as “mil dot” scopes. Very few are using those now unless they’re building a vintage M24 or M40. I’m sure there are many old school hold outs but I don’t prefer them

This is why I hang out here.

I learn something new almost every day.

I know how FFP & SFP glass works, I just never understood why one would fit an application better than the other. I've read about it, and I know just enough to be confused.

 

[JCann]

These pictures are not very good. An iPhone through a scope doesn’t work but you get the point. It a Bushnell FFP 5-30x

At 5x



At 30x



Again at 30x with illumination off

 

[adamsredlines]

Yall are making me feel warm and fuzzy about my FFP Leupold Mk4. Been kinda considering changing it up, but for no real reason. I wish it had zerostop though.

 

[swampratt]

All my scopes are SFP and I suppose I got used to them many years ago.
To figure out my drops i would set up a big cardboard box at the longest distance i was going to shoot at.
That was 500 yards years ago.

The aim point was 4" down from the top of the box.
I held on that at 100 yards and seen where the bullets impacted.
Move to 200 do the same aim at the aim point.
300 same aim point.
400-500 same aim point.
Now you have your drops on the cardboard so i would circle each group of bullets and make a dark circle around them.

Go back to the 200-300-400 and 500 yard shooting area and look through the SFP scope at the dark circle for that distance.
Adjust the power setting on the scope until a MIL dot lines up with the circle.

Write that down on paper.
12 power 2 MIL down at 400 yards.
To test and see if you got it right I would then go back to 200-300-400-500 and use hold over and only scope adjustments made was to change power setting and focus.
Shoot at aim point at those different distances now.

Sometimes on the SFP scope you could get a dot to line up at 2 different power settings like 8 and 16 power.



I just did this Wednesday with a friend of mine that has been reloading for about 2 years.
After he got his dope we then set out milk jugs at 100-200-300 yards and I told him you get one shot to kill each jug.

We will be moving to 400 and 500 yards when the weather and time allows it.
He said that was a lot of fun.