OK Ballistics - Thats D.O.P.E. - Oklahoma Gun Forum
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What makes an accurate rifle?
- Thread starter ClintC
- Start date
I know what you’re saying and I don’t necessarily disagree but group shooting at one distance doesn’t prove much and certainly not accuracy in its truest context. I would say very good shooting, but it only proves 5 rounds at 100 yards(?) produces approximately 1.5moa and that’s it. No more and no less. And yes, we’ve all called this a good group, but it’s only true at that distance and in those conditions with the 5 rounds that were fired.
The vertical stringing might or might not be of a concern if shot at greater distances. Or the vertical may even tighten up once the bullet has fully stabilized (if shooting a longer low drag designed bullet).
Further testing is warranted before one could surmise it’s an accurate rifle/load combination. But for most shooters and hunters this is all they need for what they’ve got to do.
You could run it out to 300 yards, observe the horizontal spread (probably induced by wind but not always), and see what happens to the vertical spread. You never know, it might shoot 1/2moa in the vertical at 300 yards, and again, it might go completely to crap….like when the barrel really heats up.
I believe the OP asked about accuracy not groups. Most will shoot groups at 100 yards and call it good. That’s fine for the majority of shooters/hunters, but don’t tell me it’s accurate because its accuracy hasn’t been proven except at 100 yards.
Now, if you’re going to spend the time, money, and effort to bed and channel a stock, work on or buy a trigger, develop loads to determine what makes an accurate rifle, 100 yard group shooting isn’t enough. The goal is to develop an accurate system that will produce known and expected results at all ranges you expect to encounter.
Some and most certainly not all poor performing 100 yard groups may produce better results at greater distance. I’ve had a little over 1moa groups at 100 yards that would produce a little less than 1/2moa at 300 and would have been better with the wind out of the equation.
So, again, to produce accuracy, everything plays a part…..the bow, the arrow, the Indian, and yes groups (if discerned and used correctly).
The vertical stringing might or might not be of a concern if shot at greater distances. Or the vertical may even tighten up once the bullet has fully stabilized (if shooting a longer low drag designed bullet).
Further testing is warranted before one could surmise it’s an accurate rifle/load combination. But for most shooters and hunters this is all they need for what they’ve got to do.
You could run it out to 300 yards, observe the horizontal spread (probably induced by wind but not always), and see what happens to the vertical spread. You never know, it might shoot 1/2moa in the vertical at 300 yards, and again, it might go completely to crap….like when the barrel really heats up.
I believe the OP asked about accuracy not groups. Most will shoot groups at 100 yards and call it good. That’s fine for the majority of shooters/hunters, but don’t tell me it’s accurate because its accuracy hasn’t been proven except at 100 yards.
Now, if you’re going to spend the time, money, and effort to bed and channel a stock, work on or buy a trigger, develop loads to determine what makes an accurate rifle, 100 yard group shooting isn’t enough. The goal is to develop an accurate system that will produce known and expected results at all ranges you expect to encounter.
Some and most certainly not all poor performing 100 yard groups may produce better results at greater distance. I’ve had a little over 1moa groups at 100 yards that would produce a little less than 1/2moa at 300 and would have been better with the wind out of the equation.
So, again, to produce accuracy, everything plays a part…..the bow, the arrow, the Indian, and yes groups (if discerned and used correctly).
I agree with all of JCann's post, but I have always taken 1 MOA to mean it holds that out to the useful range of the caliber being shot. If someone says a 1" group it means at that given range. If someone says 1 MOA I take that to mean all the way out to Ft. Mudge.
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I can’t say much about the long range stuff I haven’t ever shot more than 300 yards and that was once about 3 years ago and it was at a 8” steel circle. I have talked to Clint and rockchalk quite a bit about it and reloading and I do want to try it sometime I just know it’s going to cost me money afterwards lol
Beautiful Mulberry
Member
What caliber?
Beautiful Mulberry
Member
If you learn you Warren that weapons capabilities with factory or landlords you’ll be doing good!
Beautiful Mulberry
Member
That’s pretty dang good groups for having a medical condition. My friend just picked up an American predator in 308. I may do some load development in it to see what type of groups it’ll produce.
Beautiful Mulberry
Member
how well do you know your rifle? Not just here but all over the place ppl claim to know their rifle inside and out better than anyone else. How many rounds down the barrel or how hot does your barrel get before it starts loosing its accuracy?
A ‘good’ barrel from a reputable company should do well? If one has a standard factory barrel vs (top notch barrel maker) heavy barrel, the factory barrel will have lower round count as it heats up faster, heavy barrel having a higher round count, will both barrels loose accuracy around the same temp? Does the said barrel hold its accuracy until cartridge self detonates in chamber? How hot is to hot? Has anyone actually performed this on their rifle to see the actual limits of their weapon? To me this would be good data. This idea stemmed from this thread and the other on post about structured barrels.
A ‘good’ barrel from a reputable company should do well? If one has a standard factory barrel vs (top notch barrel maker) heavy barrel, the factory barrel will have lower round count as it heats up faster, heavy barrel having a higher round count, will both barrels loose accuracy around the same temp? Does the said barrel hold its accuracy until cartridge self detonates in chamber? How hot is to hot? Has anyone actually performed this on their rifle to see the actual limits of their weapon? To me this would be good data. This idea stemmed from this thread and the other on post about structured barrels.
I shoot once then lean it up against the table with the bolt open for about 5 minutes maybe a little less. I don’t have an expensive scope on this rifle just a Nikon 3x9x40 with the BDC reticle I usually can’t see the hole even at 100 yards because I can’t adjust the eye relief so I walk down to the target to check where I hit by the time I get back the barrel is cool to the touch
The basics for an accurate rifle will start with a barreled action that's accurate. It doesn't matter who or what company makes the barrel or action or who puts it together as long as the combo maintains a level of accuracy the user requires. That's not just a 3-5 round group at 100yds/m, but throughout the range the shooter will engage targets.
I shot several of the IBA DARPA guns way back on Bragg. Norm Chandler and his kid brought them out. They were cool. You know what was amazing about them? Nothing, they shot the same as our M24, and our MK13. But all those are extremely accurate guns. Because of their accurate barreled actions.
I disagree. A stock and trigger have less to do with the foundation of an accurate rifle than the barrel and action, and the sighting system and ammo; they are def not the foundation. The flimsy plastic stock and 8 pound trigger comment is a little hyperbolic too.
Rifle accuracy is relative. Each person has different requirements for their accuracy in a rifle. Determine what you want the rifle to do, what the range/distance is you're doing it, and how well you want it to do the thing. Everyone is going to be different.
If a guy only shoots a few hundred yards ever, he probably will never need a blueprinted PSR rifle and a $3000 scope. He's probably good with a ruger or splurge on a Tikka and a $400 Leupold and end up extremely happy.
If he's a competitive shooter, he's going to build that expensive rifle for his discipline and get the appropriate scope. Maybe he's just getting into it and wants to keep it within a certain budget, so he's going to look at different components.
Maybe he just wants to have a cloner M24 or M110 and shoot 800m all day every day, so he'll buy or build to that standard.
The common thing with all these is the barreled action is as accurate as they need to be. They all have different triggers, different stocks, and sights, and ammo. I have a Winchester M70 Deluxe in 30-06, super extra FUDD gun. It's so FUDD, that OSA people feel it when I go hunt with it. It came with the recoil lug epoxy bedded. The only thing I did to that rifle was float the barrel. With my loads, it shoots about .7-.9 MOA groups (not inches). so subMOA. I've taken that rifle to west TX and shot iron maidens out to 1200m. I would call it accurate, but it's just a stock rifle that has a good accurate barreled action. I actually changed the trigger on it once for some fancy bullshit, and it did Zero to improve the rifle's accuracy. So I returned it and got my money back. Stocks and Triggers, while required, are more of accessories than anything else. Little improvements like floating the barrel, bedding the action, and have a trigger that's about 5 lbs or less helps, but not as much as having a good barreled action.
I will also echo this. Once upon a midnight dreary..... Guy came to me with a DPMS AR-10. The old original tractor axel heavy barrel one. He wanted the barrel yanked off and install a Krieger of the same tapper. I asked him why, how does it shoot? He said it will put 5 rounds of FGMM in about 3/4" group at 200 yards. I said that's pretty darn good why replace it.... His reply told me everything I needed to know. Everybody knows DPMS barrels are junk, and he wants a "quality barrel, not that DPMS crap!" I charged him out the ass, and kept the " junk" barrel. Did his rifle become more accurate? No! Did it do anything better than what he had? No...... What it did do is give me a great barrel that I turned down to . 750" all the way out from the step down to the muzzle, that still holds an incredible 1/2-3/4 MOA out to at least 800 m.
Little known fact here, DPMS barrels were a little known secret, some of the best barrel I ever got were DPMS.
Little known fact here, DPMS barrels were a little known secret, some of the best barrel I ever got were DPMS.
All the hate on DPMS is really funny because they were an OEM parts supplier for almost everybody's ARs for years...like a couple decades worth. Same with DelTon.
FWIW, the Colt SOCOM barrel (heavy 14.5" one with the vertical slots cut in it) is one of the most accurate AR barrels on the planet. Like match grade accurate.
