OK Ballistics - Thats D.O.P.E. - Oklahoma Gun Forum
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Litz
- Thread starter JEVapa
- Start date
This is from Bartlein Barrels web site. Using paste may not be the recommended procedure of a given barrel manufacturer. I don’t think Krieger recommends paste either.
Although, JP Enterprise ships its rifles with a bore paste cleaner. Both of mine came with it. I guess the question comes down to who do you believe and will it possibly void my barrel warranty? A good after market barrel runs $450, times 2 for gunsmithing. Knowing they are perishable commodities I would be upset if I ruined it through ignorance or negligence in the cleaning process.
“We do not recommend using most paste type cleaners. These can be aggressive and like lapping etc… and if you don’t remove all of the paste before shooting you might as well have sand in the bore when the first round goes down it. It will damage the barrel. Also using paste type cleaners can keep polishing to the point and if over used will actually remove/change/effect the bore dimensions. The lands will take the most beating/wear to them. There are concerns that you can make the barrel too smooth and this also leads to copper fouling issues. Once something like this happens to the barrel it is usually damaged beyond the point it can be saved. Also using a past type cleaner with a brush is guaranteed damage to the bore. Paste cleaners like Iosso, Witch’s Brew, KG2 etc….and we’ve seen the damaged caused with these.”
Although, JP Enterprise ships its rifles with a bore paste cleaner. Both of mine came with it. I guess the question comes down to who do you believe and will it possibly void my barrel warranty? A good after market barrel runs $450, times 2 for gunsmithing. Knowing they are perishable commodities I would be upset if I ruined it through ignorance or negligence in the cleaning process.
“We do not recommend using most paste type cleaners. These can be aggressive and like lapping etc… and if you don’t remove all of the paste before shooting you might as well have sand in the bore when the first round goes down it. It will damage the barrel. Also using paste type cleaners can keep polishing to the point and if over used will actually remove/change/effect the bore dimensions. The lands will take the most beating/wear to them. There are concerns that you can make the barrel too smooth and this also leads to copper fouling issues. Once something like this happens to the barrel it is usually damaged beyond the point it can be saved. Also using a past type cleaner with a brush is guaranteed damage to the bore. Paste cleaners like Iosso, Witch’s Brew, KG2 etc….and we’ve seen the damaged caused with these.”
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I don’t sweat what companies recommend or warn about regarding their barrels. Those warnings are geared towards the untrained and ignorant who mimic how to do things like clean a barrel and end up ruining their stuff because they don’t know what they’re doing. “The snipers use it so must I”…in my douchiest flabby nerd voice.
I have never heard of copper fouling issues because of a polished bore. It’s always been because a rougher or unbroken in bore, but whatever.
In the military long range precision shooting school I graduated from, we were trained to use bore paste, namely JB Bore Paste, during our cleaning process. The cleaning products issued were Shooters Choice bore solvent, Sweet’s 7.62 copper solvent, and JB Bore Paste. Bore polish was not used at every cleaning either. Deep clean, zero shifts, large round count shooting sessions, etc. Usually, if shooting say 500 rounds in a training session, we’d use polish after the end of the session. We’d clean each day but polish end of week or end of session, or something.
This could probably move to the rifle cleaning thread.
I have never heard of copper fouling issues because of a polished bore. It’s always been because a rougher or unbroken in bore, but whatever.
In the military long range precision shooting school I graduated from, we were trained to use bore paste, namely JB Bore Paste, during our cleaning process. The cleaning products issued were Shooters Choice bore solvent, Sweet’s 7.62 copper solvent, and JB Bore Paste. Bore polish was not used at every cleaning either. Deep clean, zero shifts, large round count shooting sessions, etc. Usually, if shooting say 500 rounds in a training session, we’d use polish after the end of the session. We’d clean each day but polish end of week or end of session, or something.
This could probably move to the rifle cleaning thread.
If you’re worried about it, you will need your Latitude/Longitude and azimuth of fire. You’ll also need a ballistic salver to plug this info into. Applied Ballistic has an app you can purchase for your phone or you can get range finders and Kestrel weather meters with AB on them
After that, when you look at your target groupings you’ll need to decide, was it me, ammo, ballistic coefficient, rifle, wind, incorrect ballistic data, coriolis…..good luck
After that, when you look at your target groupings you’ll need to decide, was it me, ammo, ballistic coefficient, rifle, wind, incorrect ballistic data, coriolis…..good luck
This goes along with what Litz is saying
Berger bullets also has this calculator
Twist Rate Stability Calculator
Our newly updated Twist Rate Stability Calculator not only tells you what your SG is, but it also lets you know if you are reaching your optimized BC.
bergerbullets.com
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Beautiful Mulberry
Member
Reading wind and dealing with it is a perishable skill and is pretty muchguestimation. It takes time and practice and experience learning what to look for. This is just one factor.
Im not fully understanding this. What are the decimal numbers?
If I’m not mistaken those would be multipliers for calculating the the actual value vs a full value crosswind. If you put a 12 mph perpendicular cross wind into your calculator and it gave you a hold off, you could multiply that hold off by the decimal value to obtain the true value. Then again I had to fight my ass off for my A in physics and could be full of it.
Multiply the full value wind measurement by the decimal at whatever clock position the wind is blowing from. That will give you wind speed. Then based on your rifle (ballistics for your gun), you would need to find out what your hold would be for a given full value wind; 5mph, 10mph, 15 mph, or whatever
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Beautiful Mulberry
Member
I plan to, i just can’t atm. To many sticks in the fire.
Do not take this in anyway knocking Mr. Litz, or anyone else here. This is a general observation.
It always amuses me when the theoretical/overly technical guys rediscover things that were in plain sight all along. This particular observation noted above was readily observable at any bench rest match since the 50s, but isn't unique to just that particular sport. In general I find that the "accuracy sports" bench rest/long range/high power/service rifle/etc. tend to fall prey to the preoccupation with inconsequential increments. This phenomenon last until their equipment is stressed, and even a bit beyond. There first time a guy sits and watched his friends shoot prairie dogs, because his zero headspace chambered rifle is tied up, it might sink in, but usually that is the excuse phase. Well if the cleaning brush bristle hadn't fallen off and locked up the bolt it would have been fine. After a few times of this he might decide to give it a few though of headspace clearance. This phase is the "my gun runs 100%.....60% of the time" they don't want to acknowledge the times it has failed, and most action shooting sports don't have alibi rounds, or excessive time to allow for these failures. Case in point, a Oklahoma startup AR company wanted to offer an AR for 3-gun that was very accurate, and needed no lube, nickel Boron this, Ion Bond that. I told them the barrel profile that would be light, and yet stiff enough to be accurate and not wonder with heat too much. They shopped around and found a very respected barrel maker. This maker had many high power/service rifle/ and Palma wins with their barrels! Great! I talked with them at length on the profile, chamber and the fact they had to be loose enough to run anything, dirty or clean. They said they completely understood, and their barrels always work after a full day match. First batch came out and everyone was having a hell of a time keeping them running, failure to extract, failure to go into battery...etc. Company got the rifles back and asked me to look at them. Every last one of them draged in a Sinclair go gauge. Called the barrel guy up and reiterated that they need to be loose enough to run anything, like 2-3 thoug headspace, throated for 77d etc. He said they are fine, obviously the guys weren't cleaning them properly. I pointed out that these rifles would fire up to 60 rounds per stage and shoot 4-6 stages a day at a 3 day match. He outright refused to ream them looser, because everyone knows zero headspace is the most accurate.
Old saying in the action shooting sports, (and that includes PRS/Steel Safari/and field course long range) if all your gear runs you will finish in the top 25%
It always amuses me when the theoretical/overly technical guys rediscover things that were in plain sight all along. This particular observation noted above was readily observable at any bench rest match since the 50s, but isn't unique to just that particular sport. In general I find that the "accuracy sports" bench rest/long range/high power/service rifle/etc. tend to fall prey to the preoccupation with inconsequential increments. This phenomenon last until their equipment is stressed, and even a bit beyond. There first time a guy sits and watched his friends shoot prairie dogs, because his zero headspace chambered rifle is tied up, it might sink in, but usually that is the excuse phase. Well if the cleaning brush bristle hadn't fallen off and locked up the bolt it would have been fine. After a few times of this he might decide to give it a few though of headspace clearance. This phase is the "my gun runs 100%.....60% of the time" they don't want to acknowledge the times it has failed, and most action shooting sports don't have alibi rounds, or excessive time to allow for these failures. Case in point, a Oklahoma startup AR company wanted to offer an AR for 3-gun that was very accurate, and needed no lube, nickel Boron this, Ion Bond that. I told them the barrel profile that would be light, and yet stiff enough to be accurate and not wonder with heat too much. They shopped around and found a very respected barrel maker. This maker had many high power/service rifle/ and Palma wins with their barrels! Great! I talked with them at length on the profile, chamber and the fact they had to be loose enough to run anything, dirty or clean. They said they completely understood, and their barrels always work after a full day match. First batch came out and everyone was having a hell of a time keeping them running, failure to extract, failure to go into battery...etc. Company got the rifles back and asked me to look at them. Every last one of them draged in a Sinclair go gauge. Called the barrel guy up and reiterated that they need to be loose enough to run anything, like 2-3 thoug headspace, throated for 77d etc. He said they are fine, obviously the guys weren't cleaning them properly. I pointed out that these rifles would fire up to 60 rounds per stage and shoot 4-6 stages a day at a 3 day match. He outright refused to ream them looser, because everyone knows zero headspace is the most accurate.
Old saying in the action shooting sports, (and that includes PRS/Steel Safari/and field course long range) if all your gear runs you will finish in the top 25%
