Questions on ARs?

[HoLeChit]

IMO you shit all over the thread -one intended to help others. You asked for an opinion of the possible problem you are having, then threw shit n everything I said. Consistent bolt lock on a gas operated weapon is essential to accuracy. I repeated that in one instance after another which you say is incorrect. Well, fuck me if that isn’t what I’ve seen and been told from iver 50 years of dealing with all types of rifles. That would includes helping over 20 guys build AKs in my garage (some are here and good friends), helping numerious people change out barrels and hand guards on their ARs, trouble shooting ARs for friends and their friends, etc teaching Scouts for their rifle badges, doing YHEC for years, teaching ARs at WOT for years, and never made a dime out of it.
Back to you and your question, you change to a lighter bolt carrier and you accuracy goes sideways. What does the bolt carrier do? It carries the bolt carrier into lock and with the lighter bolt carrier your accuracy goes sideways.
And you still say it isn’t bolt lock up.
Just stay the fuck out of ny threads and I’ll do the same for you.

Look dude, Wanting to help is great. Helping and offering to help is great. Nobody cares if you do it for free or not though. Nobody cares how many homebuilds you've done. It proves nothing. While we have a really small community on here, there's an amazing amount of knowledge and experience, and there isn't a single one of us that is omnipotent in everything gun, but we all also never know who we are talking to. As mentioned in the rules:

Notice the part where it says in section 1 part b: You may be a keyboard commando, but there may be actual SOF on the other side. Meaning: You may know what you know, but that doesn't mean that the guy on the other side of the internet doesn't know better. You never know if you're telling a fudd sleeping in a winnebago down by the river that he doesn't know shit, or if that guy is a world class, proven shooter with a serious hand in creating shooting sports as we know it, or bonafide Retired SF, or a career police officer with years of SWAT experience. We have them all here. Just cause you're being told you aren't right doesn't mean someone is shitting on you or your intentions. Take it as an opportunity to learn from someone who may know better.

 

[JEVapa]

Just stay the fuck out of ny threads and I’ll do the same for you.

Lol, that not how it works here. Maybe someplace else where you take great pride in getting booted, but not here. If you're gonna talk the talk, better walk the walk. We are all perfectly capable of being assholes and condescending pricks. I know because I went to the school of condescension and can hang with the best of them.

It's an easy thing to do if you get angry at answers and flip somebody shit, then try to be some kind of victim. Just make sure you understand that shit will get flipped right back and that you can take like a man. lol.

Kurt didn't come here shitting in your thread. He actually posted a problem and asked for input. Go back and look:
16" 308 DPMS, runs finew/reg BCG, change to Light Carrier, strings rounds horizontally in a 5"-6" group (repeatable), tried multiple solutions and none worked, had The J.P. from JP Rifles (whom, in your vast AR Nollege, don't know who they are) try to see what's up, and nothing. Remember, Kurt's goal was to lighten the rifle. This requires some critical thinking. What's the one thing he did not do? Think about it.
Your answers to possible solutions were overheating, cold bore, snipers, bolt lock up, etc, just throwing words out there and hoping something sticks. That's one way. That's what all the parts buyers do to solve issues. An armorer will have it halfway or more figured before he buys anything.

Now back to the critical thinking part. What's the one thing Kurt didn't do? It was because he's trying to keep the rifle light. Thorough reading and comprehension would've picked up on it- may not be the problem/solution, but it's an easy AF button to rule out.


BTW, do you still have your Colt armorer certificate? I have one of my armorers certs still. I'll take a pic when I'm done and I bet it trumps yours, since we're throwing out bonafides. I don't have garage armory creds though to list for my CV. I can probably work on that since I have a bigass barn and an awesome set of tools. I'll have to document it.

Resectfully I don’t give a rats ass who JP rifles are.

Also, if you don't "Resectfully" "give a rats ass who JP rifles are", while calling yourself an armorer and throwing throw out all kinds of garageband bonafides, you might want to go into a quiet place or look in the mirror and retrospect and re-evaluate your self-awareness.

Easy Armorer Q for you:
What is the torque value of the of the locking nut/plain round nut (Castle nut) on a Carbine receiver extension? Easy question and real armorers will know this almost by heart. You can go look it up in a 23&P though.

 

[SoonerP226]

garage armory creds

garageband bonafides

Dammit, I came here looking for something to put on my LinkedIn profile, and now I don’t know whether I should use Certified Garage Armorer or Garageband Bonafide Armorer.

 

[KurtM]

I once had a Corvair with a Crown conversion. That is a conversion which puts a small block Chevy amidship! It was rat bastard fast. I needed a 15 radiator cap for it so went to the parts store. The guy behind the counter who had built "tons" of motors in his garage started in to berating me and telling me I was stupid because Corvairs don't have a radiator...... Took him outside and said what's this? He doubled down and said someone was playing a joke on me because Corvairs don't have a radiator, and he said I was stupid for thinking it did and stormed back inside. I went to a different part store. I see a lot of similarities here!

Edited, due to reading comprehension on my part.

Now on to Big J's question, what's the torque on the nut, well that's simply a matter of which type of handguard effects bolt speed and heat at lock up the most!

 

[rockchalk06]

Look dude, Wanting to help is great. Helping and offering to help is great. Nobody cares if you do it for free or not though. Nobody cares how many homebuilds you've done. It proves nothing. While we have a really small community on here, there's an amazing amount of knowledge and experience, and there isn't a single one of us that is omnipotent in everything gun, but we all also never know who we are talking to. As mentioned in the rules:
View attachment 2951
Notice the part where it says in section 1 part b: You may be a keyboard commando, but there may be actual SOF on the other side. Meaning: You may know what you know, but that doesn't mean that the guy on the other side of the internet doesn't know better. You never know if you're telling a fudd sleeping in a winnebago down by the river that he doesn't know shit, or if that guy is a world class, proven shooter with a serious hand in creating shooting sports as we know it, or bonafide Retired SF, or a career police officer with years of SWAT experience. We have them all here. Just cause you're being told you aren't right doesn't mean someone is shitting on you or your intentions. Take it as an opportunity to learn from someone who may know better.

Well said

 

[rockchalk06]

This thread was intended to help others that have an AR and little experience.
It is intended. to help them save money and do things themselves if possible if they want to change or modify it. Hopefully I can help them do that and point them in the right direction. Or others can help.
I never presented myself as the ultimate authority, only a serious hobbyist.

If you want to shit in this thread, I suggest you stick your head up your ass and jump.

How bout ya take a break from the Internet for the evening. Come back or don't. Either way, the guys here are going to take childish comments and fuck with you to the end of time.

Wanna help folks that don't know how to build stuff? Cool! That's what's this place is about and why it's here. It's not here to tell someone off to make yourself look like a badass.

At the end of the day, no one cares. No one gives a shit and will move on to the next thread.

 

[danc46]

Lol, that not how it works here. Maybe someplace else where you take great pride in getting booted, but not here. If you're gonna talk the talk, better walk the walk. We are all perfectly capable of being assholes and condescending pricks. I know because I went to the school of condescension and can hang with the best of them.

It's an easy thing to do if you get angry at answers and flip somebody shit, then try to be some kind of victim. Just make sure you understand that shit will get flipped right back and that you can take like a man. lol.

Kurt didn't come here shitting in your thread. He actually posted a problem and asked for input. Go back and look:
16" 308 DPMS, runs finew/reg BCG, change to Light Carrier, strings rounds horizontally in a 5"-6" group (repeatable), tried multiple solutions and none worked, had The J.P. from JP Rifles (whom, in your vast AR Nollege, don't know who they are) try to see what's up, and nothing. Remember, Kurt's goal was to lighten the rifle. This requires some critical thinking. What's the one thing he did not do? Think about it.
Your answers to possible solutions were overheating, cold bore, snipers, bolt lock up, etc, just throwing words out there and hoping something sticks. That's one way. That's what all the parts buyers do to solve issues. An armorer will have it halfway or more figured before he buys anything.

Now back to the critical thinking part. What's the one thing Kurt didn't do? It was because he's trying to keep the rifle light. Thorough reading and comprehension would've picked up on it- may not be the problem/solution, but it's an easy AF button to rule out.


BTW, do you still have your Colt armorer certificate? I have one of my armorers certs still. I'll take a pic when I'm done and I bet it trumps yours, since we're throwing out bonafides. I don't have garage armory creds though to list for my CV. I can probably work on that since I have a bigass barn and an awesome set of tools. I'll have to document it.



Also, if you don't "Resectfully" "give a rats ass who JP rifles are", while calling yourself an armorer and throwing throw out all kinds of garageband bonafides, you might want to go into a quiet place or look in the mirror and retrospect and re-evaluate your self-awareness.

Easy Armorer Q for you:
What is the torque value of the of the locking nut/plain round nut (Castle nut) on a Carbine receiver extension? Easy question and real armorers will know this almost by heart. You can go look it up in a 23&P though.

Never called myself an armorer. Armorers are paid. Taking in weapons and repairing them without an FFL is against the law. I have received several training certificates, well over 100, in everything from robotics to educatiom seminars at OU, in the last 40 years. They went out the door years ago. No I don’t have the certificate for what I remember as a three day class.
Take the AK building, there was no course for it, just guys building them from torn down comb lock rifles.
im not going to waste my time on this crap. I’ll gauruntee Ive got a parts inventory fro S&W revolvers that nobody here can match, or AR parts from helping others building, modifying, or repairing that most PDs can’t match. That came from doing this shit for years.
The torque wrench I use on AR barrel nuts is an old beam type Cradtsman, last calibrated (tested for accuracy) in 2021 and it was within 2%). I try to get 35-40 after I face the front of upper receiver with a drill driven facing tool that goes all the way into the upper receiver. i do it three times, loosen and tighten. Im not one of those clowns that uses a crescent wrench and cheater bar and applies Chinese torque - pull till they squint.
A lot of the mfigs vary on their torque specs. Some are 80
That facing jig has been used on 10x the number of other peoples rifles than mine. Without charging anybody.
Since you’re an armorer, how many times have you faced off a for accuracy? Used a lathe to do it? (No I don’t have a lathe so I bought the jig. )
I don’t have to help a damn soul but I do. If you want take this whole fucking thread down. Or let somebody you think is more qualified do it if they will. Either way I’m here to have fun and to me that means taking a kid to get a deer, helping somebody to shoot well, or helping them make a gun function properly if I can.
And good humored bull shit.
And speaking of straight thinking, his rifle shoots good until he puts in a lightweight bolt carrier then it goes to shit.
Um let’s think about this, what is one of the things the bolt carrier does?
We can rule out consistent bolt lock according to him.
OK then. Let him stay after it until he finds the problem. It’s hust money and time.

 

[danc46]

How bout ya take a break from the Internet for the evening. Come back or don't. Either way, the guys here are going to take childish comments and fuck with you to the end of time.

Wanna help folks that don't know how to build stuff? Cool! That's what's this place is about and why it's here. It's not here to tell someone off to make yourself look like a badass.

At the end of the day, no one cares. No one gives a shit and will move on to the next thread.

Have you noticed I’m not afraid to fuck back?
we started out with one guy asking about changing his hand guard. We move on to ”experience” asking about changing parts and his grouping goes to shit. Then no matter what was suggested was wrong. If that ain’t spreading shit in a thread I don’t know a primer from a percussion cap.
He still hasn’t fixed it and won’t with a lightweight carrier.
That attitude is killing a liot of competitive across the country. Nobody has the money to lay out for the gear or put up with an attitude do it our way or gtfo.
If I can help a young man save money to buy ammo and shoot more I’m going to. And if you and others don’t like doing that, don’t worry about what will happen to their kids in the future.
Im not a keyboard commando, Im doing what I can to help any shooter that needs help so long as they are civil!

 

[conditionzero]

Great talk.

 

[KurtM]

My dad is a T.V. repair man, he has an ultimate set of tools... I can fix it

Guess you were so bowed up you missed the part where I "fixed it" .... "Never tried a heavier buffer, because I was trying to shave off weight. Finally tuned it back to run suppressed with standard carrier. Hell I was only saving about 3/4# so screw it! This thing is absolutely reliable so it will just stay porky. it is a night time pig gun and I'm sure the pigs won't care if it's a bit heavy. "

 

[danc46]

Let’s see if we can salvage this thread.
Would Listing websites that sell AR parts - good ones at good prices with quick delivery - be a help to others?
Would my having bought parts there in the last few months make it “incorrect information”?
Here is a smoking deal on a lower parts kit. $39.95

AR15-LP-KT-010 - OEM Mil-Spec AR-15 Lower Parts Kit - AR15Discounts

AR15Discounts is excited to offer up these high-quality Mil-Spec Lower Parts Kits at wholesale prices. We source these in large batches from the same compan

ar15discounts.com

Theyre quick.
How many here run ambi controls? Safety and mag release?
if you like Troy ambi mafpg release, if you can find them for under $55, jump on it. They are the best IMO but there are several makes that are cheaper, knock offs from the old Norgon style. Strike makes them you can find at Joe Bobs for $30 sometimes.
ANYBODY LOOKING FOR a barrel 1-8 twist m Wylde chamber, nitrided or stainless? Joe Bobs or AR15 discounts have decent barrels at good prices.
The barrels I have bought from them have performed better than some barrels from Midwayusa. And paid less for them.

Is this thread worth salvaging? Is there even a need here for it?

yea or nay.

 

[danc46]

My dad is a T.V. repair man, he has an ultimate set of tools... I can fix it

Like to meet him. I’ve worked on everything from robotics to Cummins diesels, stood over a nuclear reactor and stared into the icy blue depths, froze my ass putting in lights in a runway in January, and had a Secret Service agent point an M16 at my gut at President Reagan’s speech. (Turned a corner to go hit some lights and they didn’t tell him I was coming, I wasn’t a threat.)
id like to compare my tool kit with you daddy’s. Mine is probably bigger. . Hope you don’t suffer from tool kit envy.

 

[Rick James]

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-b5-systems-lower-build-kit-with-bravo-stock-fde.html

 

[KurtM]

"Earth man I have seen things you would not believe! I've seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I have seen seabeams glitter in the darkness at the Tanhauser gates. When I'm gone all these memories will be lost like tears in rain"

 

[danc46]

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-b5-systems-lower-build-kit-with-bravo-stock-fde.html

I had to cut out the PSA emails. One of their Daily Deals was a Rock Island Tactical 1911 (ambi safety) for $329. I bought one less than $370 with shipping and transfer fee. It shoots great. But I didn’t need another 1911, They’ve got great deals, But they rake up a lot of closet space. Guess how I know?

 

[danc46]

My dad is a T.V. repair man, he has an ultimate set of tools... I can fix it

Guess you were so bowed up you missed the part where I "fixed it" .... "Never tried a heavier buffer, because I was trying to shave off weight. Finally tuned it back to run suppressed with standard carrier. Hell I was only saving about 3/4# so screw it! This thing is absolutely reliable so it will just stay porky. it is a night time pig gun and I'm sure the pigs won't care if it's a bit heavy. "

So the lightweight carrier was the problem. Did you do that before you posted in the thread?
And you said you weren’t trying to establish “top dog” status.
Id Still tell you what I tod you from the first. Compare the brass in a comparator, separating the heavy BCG brass from the lightweight BCG brass. You’ll most likely see a measureable difference in the brass. Guess what it comes from?
ETA, I’m staying out of your threads. Obviously you can’t stay out of mine. WTF is your excuse?

 

[KurtM]

Ok, you are going to need an engineering lesson here I see. When an AR closes and the bolt has rotated to engage the locking lugs on the extension which are BOTH flat surfaces, the "headspace" is a constant. IE. If the bolt only cams 1/2 way to full lock it's headspace is still the same as if it is at full lock. It is not Progressive in the least. A comparitor will show NO difference between brass from a bolt only half closed to one that is fully closed... You know, flat surfaces to flat surfaces kinda stuff.
Now can a bolt unlock too soon? Sure it can, and it exhibits several traits, rim damage, excessive brass shaving from extractor, and in worse case torn rim and stuck brass, but guess what it won't exhibit.... a difference in case dimensions.
Part two, lightened carriers have been around for a long time, Old "J.P. Whoever" came up with the idea around 1998, and the first ones were made out of Aluminum. Now a days there are shaved down steel carriers, Titanium carriers, and good old Aluminum carriers. Many thousands have been sold and the real strange part is NO ONE has run into this issue before of perfect horizontal stringing. We are now talking about rifles that do get heated up WAY MORE than most, and still no stringing. So this is a fairly unique situation, and it has nothing to do with M1s, M-14s, or bolt rifles. I think JEVapa has something when he was talking about bolt velocity, but even then the nature of the "stringing" is too precise to be just that, although I'm sure that's part of it!

Now since you claim to be an expert on M1s and M-14s and have built many match rifles of both, I want you to tell me two things 1. In detail explain to me how you "adjust" an M-14 gas system, a system that is only open or closed. 2. How a Match rifle closes soooo much slower than a standard rifle when the only closing force is from the main spring of the rifle..... Do match rifles require a very light main spring? And if so, how the hell can they get consistent lock up?
Two things come to mind, you may have stared into that reactor a bit too long, and the Secret Service did us all a "disservice" lo these many years ago.

 

[conditionzero]

I love the conversation and activity here. But lets just kill the pissing contest. If it keeps going I would rather just start a new "AR Platform Building & Troubleshooting" thread.

You all seem to have long standing knowledge and that is what we want to share. Now, I don't think we should be spreading misinformation. But alas, I do not have the depth of knowledge here to say yes or no. So if someone has a problem, lets work towards a solution but I maybe we should practice some "agree to disagree" here? We are all free to take what we deem the best advice / opinion here. I am sure there are hard and fast rules for certain things, and those things we want to make sure we keep as to not lead someone down the path of injury.

I would maybe even posture, if we want to have a debate on a specific technique, that it is done in its own thread? Open to ideas.

CZ

 

[danc46]

Ok, you are going to need an engineering lesson here I see. When an AR closes and the bolt has rotated to engage the locking lugs on the extension which are BOTH flat surfaces, the "headspace" is a constant. IE. If the bolt only cams 1/2 way to full lock it's headspace is still the same as if it is at full lock. It is not Progressive in the least. A comparitor will show NO difference between brass from a bolt only half closed to one that is fully closed... You know, flat surfaces to flat surfaces kinda stuff.
Now can a bolt unlock too soon? Sure it can, and it exhibits several traits, rim damage, excessive brass shaving from extractor, and in worse case torn rim and stuck brass, but guess what it won't exhibit.... a difference in case dimensions.
Part two, lightened carriers have been around for a long time, Old "J.P. Whoever" came up with the idea around 1998, and the first ones were made out of Aluminum. Now a days there are shaved down steel carriers, Titanium carriers, and good old Aluminum carriers. Many thousands have been sold and the real strange part is NO ONE has run into this issue before of perfect horizontal stringing. We are now talking about rifles that do get heated up WAY MORE than most, and still no stringing. So this is a fairly unique situation, and it has nothing to do with M1s, M-14s, or bolt rifles. I think JEVapa has something when he was talking about bolt velocity, but even then the nature of the "stringing" is too precise to be just that, although I'm sure that's part of it!

Now since you claim to be an expert on M1s and M-14s and have built many match rifles of both, I want you to tell me two things 1. In detail explain to me how you "adjust" an M-14 gas system, a system that is only open or closed. 2. How a Match rifle closes soooo much slower than a standard rifle when the only closing force is from the main spring of the rifle..... Do match rifles require a very light main spring? And if so, how the hell can they get consistent lock up?
Two things come to mind, you may have stared into that reactor a bit too long, and the Secret Service did us all a "disservice" lo these many years ago.

You should have just said you didn’t have a comparator or didn’t know how to use one. Things would have so been so much simpler showing you. If bolts are lock up the same every time, we wouldn’t need comparators would we?
And again, the match rifles I built were MINE - 3 M1As and two Garands -because I wanted them the best I could get them instead of taking a chance of wasting my money with some so called expert.
FYI the M14 valve is closed partially to the best shooting position. It doesn’t have to be wide open or shut. The point is to slow down the bolt cycling to the best lock up.(changing compression speed changes spring expansion speed)
To avoid a continued pissing contest, I’ll ask you once again to not post in my threads and I won’t post in yours. Let’s end it here.
And as far as the quality of what I do, being asked to see a 35+year old training certificate is kind of lame. And torquing a barrel nut with a torque wrench that isn’t calibrated can be very misleading. I try to get it right.
Let’s get back to help others with ARs to encourage shooting - the expressed purpose of this forum is to get others on the range as often as possible.
Im all for it.

 

[danc46]

I love the conversation and activity here. But lets just kill the pissing contest. If it keeps going I would rather just start a new "AR Platform Building & Troubleshooting" thread.

You all seem to have long standing knowledge and that is what we want to share. Now, I don't think we should be spreading misinformation. But alas, I do not have the depth of knowledge here to say yes or no. So if someone has a problem, lets work towards a solution but I maybe we should practice some "agree to disagree" here? We are all free to take what we deem the best advice / opinion here. I am sure there are hard and fast rules for certain things, and those things we want to make sure we keep as to not lead someone down the path of injury.

I would maybe even posture, if we want to have a debate on a specific technique, that it is done in its own thread? Open to ideas.

CZ

Do it dude. There was a pretty good interest at OKC Gun club for the class I was going to teach. I didn’t because of the radiation treatments.
Seveal gun shops near me are selling bare receivers and they have asked me if I’d build ARs for people. I’m not going down that rabbit hole. We had an AK building party in my garage, around 20 showed up. I promise you one ot two were ATF agents or just stupid asking about a third hole.
i don’t need that shit in my life. What I want is to see someone build one and grinning when it works well for him.